Thursday, January 17, 2013

Gordon Clark, Metaphysics, and Personhood

Gordon Clark was a brilliant epistemologist. But it seems to this lowly layman that his aversion to empiricism at times prompted him to accept metaphysical positions which are equally unpleasant.

Now, I do not wish to give the impression I reject all of his metaphysical considerations. For example, while I am not sure when it was written, in some comments on Hebrews 11:3, Clark wrote (link):
A blueprint is the physical pattern of something to be constructed in three dimensions. A Tinkertoy, itself in three dimensions, can be a pattern of a larger physical body. But can a spiritual, intellectual, invisible, incorporeal Philonic Idea be a pattern of a three dimensional tabernacle? Can the things that are seen (phenomena) have been made of things which do not appear (noumenal)? Read 11:3. 
Yes, Hebrews 11:3 is an interesting verse. First, it must be translated. The King James, the New American Standard, Rienecker in his Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament, and a similar work by Hughes, all agree on essentially the same translation: “so that what is seen has not come into being from things which appear.” The Roman Catholic New American Bible has the more positive rendering, “what is visible came into being through the invisible.” The Jerusalem Bible has a looser insipid translation: “so that no apparent cause can account for the things we can see.” Owen in his immense commentary remarks that “these words...have much of obscurity and difficulty in them.” The King James and the New American Standard are grammatically correct. I might put it a little more crudely, ‘What is seen is that which has not come from phenomena.” The New American Bible is not an accurate translation, but it seems to be an excellent interpretation. And the interpretation is not so difficult as Owen leads us to believe. Especially when compared with verses in the Pentateuch the words strongly suggest that the visible world came from a suprasensible, ideal world. The term noumena is not in the text; but what else could to me ek phainomenon mean? Phenomena come from noumena. Certainly the verse in Hebrews does not forbid this interpretation.
In the next paragraph he states “The Tinkertoy is real…” And earlier, he affirmed that “this visible olam hazeh” is “really ephemeral.” I find this analysis to be excellent. The contrast between physical phenomena and spiritual noumena, the assertion that the former is patterned after the latter, and his assertion both are real all seem to coincide with my own views.

But in Clark and His Critics (pg. 146-149), he rejects the “existence of an unknowable Ding-an-sich” or thing-in-itself, replying to Nash that he does “not remember saying that the created world is an imperfectly real, unknowable object.” He further states that there is no knowledge that is non-proposition.

While I agree that there is no knowledge that is non-propositional (in the philosophic sense anyway), the implication that the created world is a knowable object rather than a Ding-an-sich calls into question just how visible phenomena contrasts with invisible noumena. Is the contrast merely that phenomena is ephemeral whereas noumena is not? Are both propositions? If phenomena is not propositional, is the assertion of such not an assertion of the existence of an unknowable Ding-an-sich? Then again, it is difficult to imagine what it means to say propositions are visible. It is even more difficult to imagine – especially considering Clark’s position as a whole – what it means to say propositions are created. Is God’s knowledge created? If so, then given Clark’s definition of individual human and divine persons, this would mean God is metaphysically dependent on creation: 
…a man is a congeries, a system, sometimes an agglomeration of miscellany, but at any rate a collection of thoughts. A man is what he thinks: and no two men are precisely the same combination. 
This is true of the Trinity also, for although each of the three Persons is omniscient, one thinks “I or my collection of thoughts is the Father,” and the second thinks, “I or my thoughts will assume or have assumed a human nature.” The Father does not think this second thought, nor does the Son think the first. (The Trinity, Individuation)
For the Father to think “I am Creator” presupposes a creation, the truthmaker for that proposition. But if God metaphysically just is what He thinks and one of His thoughts is dependent upon the fact of creation, God is metaphysically dependent on creation. I don’t have a problem with the idea that thoughts individuate. But I see no reason to leap from that conclusion to the idea that persons are equivalent to their thoughts, which is what Clark seems to have done.

Instead, I think a better definition would be that a person is an ego, the possessor of a mind or minds capable of reflexive indexation. These words could each be defined and each definition could be true without its being the case that some “real” Ding-an-sich can’t correspond to them. I think the so-called empirical representational theory of truth in which truth images the physical reality to which it merely corresponds scared Clark away from any type of correspondence – hence the seeming propositional monism. As can be seen in his book The Incarnation, it seems to have had significant consequences. But if we maintain the general priority of the noumena over the phenomena – or more broadly, propositional Ideas to things-in-themselves – I think these hazards can be avoided. At the very least, this alternative is certainly worth exploring.

11 comments:

C.Jay Engel said...

Thanks for the post. I have read several others of yours as well.

Although I would interpret Clark a little differently in those last paragraphs, allowing myself to agree with him. For instance, you seem to infer that for Clark, the ontological nature of a person is what he thinks and then you offer your alternative: the ego.

But I think that Clark too saw a person as an ego who thinks and is individuated by those thoughts. While you indicate that your own view is that a person is an ego who possesses a mind, Clark would clarify that a person is an ego, which is the mind. This mind does the thinking, the reasoning.

Ontologically though, the person is the ego. In his Language and Theology, Clark notes: "The body is an instrument or tool man uses. He himself is God's breath, the spirit God breathed into the clay, the mind, the thinking ego. Therefore, man is rational in the likeness of God's rationality."

Moreover, Clark was a very precise thinker. I don't think he would have written the last phrase in the possessive ("God's rationality") if he thought that God *is* his rationality. I interpret Clark to be saying that God, just like his human creation, is an ego (a mind), that thinks and has rationality. And the way in which God thinks is logic and reason. Of course, you agree with that last part.

Thanks again!

C.Jay Engel said...

Oh and one more thought. Clark did say (your quote): "A man is what he thinks: and no two men are precisely the same combination. "

If Clark thought that man was ontologically the collection of his propositions, he would have to say that all men are metaphysically different, that is, each has his own specific and unique nature. Such a doctrine of man would destroy so much in Christian theology. So it is safe to say that Clark held no such thing.

Rather, I do think that for Clark, man is the ego (which is also the mind).

Ryan said...

Hi C. Jay,

The important difference between an ego's being the possessor of a mind and an ego's being identical to a mind is that we do not end up with a two-person theory of the incarnation, as Clark did, when the first is held. Christ (one possessor) possessed two minds, but He was not two persons (therefore, He cannot be identified with that which is possessed). If "He" were two persons, we couldn't very well use a singular personal pronoun or even a single word (e.g. Jesus, Christ, Son) to refer to Him. He would not be the God man, He would be a God and a man... and cease to be a "He" at all, instead becoming a "They."

"Clark would clarify that a person is an ego, which is the mind. This mind does the thinking, the reasoning."

Later in his life, Clark would also say that the mind metaphysically or ontologically just is a proposition or thought: "Accordingly the proposal is that a man is a congeries, a system, sometimes an agglomeration of miscellany, but at any rate a collection of thoughts. A man is what he thinks: and no two men are precisely the same combination" (The Trinity). I would not agree, and at one point in time, it would seem Clark would not have either:

http://unapologetica.blogspot.com/2013/12/gordon-clark-on-divine-simplicity.html

You seem to have in mind early Clark. But his views developed over time.

"If Clark thought that man was ontologically the collection of his propositions, he would have to say that all men are metaphysically different, that is, each has his own specific and unique nature."

Well, refer to the above quote from his book on the Trinity. But to answer on Clark's behalf in this case, while each person would be a separate being because his thoughts would be unique, there could be overlap, at which point he would be able to affirm a generic unity among men. That still doesn't solve the other problems I've mentioned with that definition, though.

C.Jay Engel said...

“The important difference….” This is the problem that you have with Clark. But my point was that Clark equated the ego with the mind. You may have a problem with it, but it wasn’t my intention to argue against you on this point.

“Later in his life, Clark would also say that the mind metaphysical or ontologically just is a proposition or thought.” Actually I think you have misunderstood him here by saying the mind is ontologically a proposition. One example will illustrate why this is so. I assume you are aware of Clark’s solution to the trinity (and reading your recent exchanges with Sean Gerety, it is clear you disagree). Either way, if it were true that Clark equated the mind ontologically with a proposition, he would have no place to claim a unity of God. If all three persons of the trinity were different ontologically, then God is three. Thus, it my view that Clark would find no problem with the statement that the mind is the ego and individuated from other minds by the propositions thought. I do not think your quote from The Trinity was interpreted correctly because you assumed he was speaking of the ontological nature of man.

Certainly don’t want to start an argument; you are already occupied with Gerety over there on Facebook —and while I lean more toward his perspective. I am far less militant —perhaps to my detriment. My point here is not to start another in depth debate on persons and propositions between one who is more Clarkian and another who is less, but I did want to point out that Clark would have no problem with identifying a man as an ego.

Ryan said...

"I do not think your quote from The Trinity was interpreted correctly because you assumed he was speaking of the ontological nature of man."

He didn't just individuate them that way. That would be fine. But he actually thought they ontologically just are thoughts: "a man is a congeries, a system, sometimes an agglomeration of miscellany, but at any rate a collection of thoughts." Not "a man is [individuated by] a congeries, a system..." (although individuation via thoughts certainly follows from this distinctive ontology). Here are a few more quotes that show Clark believed persons metaphysically are propositions or thoughts:

Clark and His Critics, pg. 148:

//Aristotle admitted that individuals cannot be known. Hegel’s fault, or one of them, was to make the concept rather than the propositions the object of knowledge. But a concept is as unknowable as an individual. “Pen” is neither true nor false. Only a proposition can be true. “The pen belongs to Herr Krug” may be true; it may be false; but a concept in isolation is not an object of knowledge. Truth always comes in propositions.

Two quotations from Leibniz enforced the application of this principle to persons. In fact the citations will do double work. They will show that knowledge of a person is propositions (and thus they bear on what several of my critics consider paradoxical, to wit, persons are propositions), and at the same time they will bring home the lesson from Plotinus that knowledge of oneself is no easy, off-hand, immediate experience, but of all things immensely difficult.//

Clark and His Critics, pg. 149:

//Far from my making it impossible for God to know human beings, it is rather Professor Nash who does so. His view of the self is that of some Ich-an-sich. Leibniz suggests that the ego is a complex definition, including the life history of the person, and no doubt his state in a future world as well. This definition is not unknowable in essence, and God knows it because he determined what it should be. On the other hand, it is something that the person himself does not know, at least in this life.//

First Corinthians, pg. 64

//Now, a mind is what it thinks. If there were no thought, there would be no mind. The “person” would be “mindless”; that is, there would be neither person nor mind.//

First John, pgs. 18-19

//A person is his mind. A person is his thoughts. The Apostle Paul said, “We have the mind of Christ.” Paul had the mind of Christ (in part) because he understood the atonement in 1 Corinthians 1, and the wisdom of God in chapter 2. Christ, too, is his mind, of which the gospel message is a part. God is a spirit, an intelligence, a mind; God is truth, and the message is a part of that truth. Therefore the proclamation of the gospel is the proclamation of Christ. As Westcott said, though perhaps more than he meant, “In a most true sense Christ is the gospel.//

God's Hammer, pgs. 186-187:

//We have Christ’s mind insofar as we think his thoughts. Of course we are not omniscient; we do not think all his thoughts; and worse, we think some false propositions too. We are what we think, just as Christ is what he thinks.//

These show a development in his theory of person from when he had said "all propositions require a distinction between subject and predicate. Knowledge also requires the distinction, logical if not actual, between the person knowing and the object known" (Thales to Dewey, pgs. 146-147).

Ryan said...

"If all three persons of the trinity were different ontologically, then God is three."

Clark viewed God as a genus. The definitions of the Father, Son, and Spirit as a whole may differ, but there is overlap. This overlap or what they have in common is what Clark believed to be "God." That's why he agreed with Berkhof that God and the divine attributes are the same. So that wouldn't be a problem, although the idea that we worship a genus rather than individuals who possess genera is bizarre and a reason I find Clark's Trinitarian views untenable.

"I did want to point out that Clark would have no problem with identifying a man as an ego."

Okay, thanks.

C.Jay Engel said...

The fact that Clark constantly emphasized that a person is identified by a collection of thoughts does not mean that Clark’s view was that the ontological nature of that person was thoughts.

We might ask, what makes a man, a man? The fact that he is an ego. What makes me, me? The congeries, the system, the collection of my thoughts. This is my person. Again, I strongly think you (and others perhaps) have misunderstood him. For instance, in a later article he wrote on logic, he stated:

“[Man] himself is God’s breath, the spirit God breathed into the clay, the mind, the thinking ego.”

If I noted that "Clark is caucasian," this would not mean that caucasian is his ontological nature. In similar manner, when Clark stated that man is a collection of thoughts, he does not mean it ontologically. When I read (present tense) the chapter on individuation in The Trinity, I see Clark’s statement in the wider context of a conversation on individuation, not ontology.

But you must understand that the quote I provided on the thinking ego is in fact an ontological statement. Thus, I hold to my statement that Clark saw man as an ego, and each ego is a set of propositions.

The varying use of the word is is perhaps the source of confusion.

Clearly my example using the trinity did not come across as I hoped. Oh well. Personally, I find Clark’s trinitarian views wonderful.

Ryan said...

Again, if you read the citations, he is not just saying a person is identified by his thoughts but that he is also identical to them. I understand the difference between the "is" of predication and "is" of identity, but Clark's argument against Nash was that persons are said to be knowable because they ontologically just are propositions, specifically what they think: "persons are propositions." That was essential to his rebuttal. To be honest, you are the first person I have heard contest this understanding of Clark's view of personhood. Not that that makes you wrong in itself, of course.

“[Man] himself is God’s breath, the spirit God breathed into the clay, the mind, the thinking ego.”

I don't see what is the significance of this quote?

As for his Trinitarianism, you are free to think what you will, but I hope you will continue to read some of the posts I've written about Clark's view on that matter for a more thorough explanation as to why I disagree with them.

C.Jay Engel said...

How do you not see the significance of the quote? He literally says that "man... is the thinking ego."

Isn't that what I am affirming and you are denying?

C.Jay Engel said...

"but that he is also identical to them."

Identification is not ontology. I agree that Clark thought a person is identified and individuated by his set of a propositions. My point is that Clark saw the ontological nature of the person as the thinking ego.

Ryan said...

"Identification is not ontology. I agree that Clark thought a person is identified and individuated by his set of a propositions."

I think you might have misread what I said. I noted identification and identity are different, and that Clark not only identified persons with propositions but considered them identical with them. My focus is on the identity portion, not the identification portion.

"My point is that Clark saw the ontological nature of the person as the thinking ego."

Yes, I agree he saw that. I still don't see the relevance. What he says here is not incompatible with his view that the ontological nature of "the ego is a complex definition, including the life history of the person, and no doubt his state in a future world as well. This definition is not unknowable in essence, and God knows it because he determined what it should be." For the thinking thing is itself an object of thought. This shows "that knowledge of a person is propositions (and thus they bear on what several of my critics consider paradoxical, to wit, persons are propositions)."