“…was appalled by the way Nestorius kept referring to the different prosopa as well as to the prosopon of the union… The problem was that Nestorius was using one and the same technical term to connote the disparate concepts of differentiation and convergence: there are two prosopa (Jesus and the Logos) and only one prosopon (Christ). There is of course, no sensible context whatsoever that would allow one to speak of three prosopa. It may well be that this economy of language in Nestorius led to a fatal weakness in the coherence of his theory, as Cyril argued, but it is clear enough that the caricature of his teaching that described it as no more than a repetition of the old Two Sons theory is an uneven reading of his intent. To this extent Cyril’s synopsis of his opponent was inaccurate. But Cyril had nonetheless put his finger on the key matter and his criticism still had force in the way he argued from Nestorius’ explicit statements to his necessary implications. In this regard Cyril had posed the essential question and voiced fears of many others when he asked whether such a theory had done enough to secure a concept of unitive subject in Christ.” (pgs. 149, 159)If true, Cyril makes an excellent point. Indeed, one can read Nestorius make this exact sort of statement in the Bazaar of Heracleides:
…the union of the prosôpa took place for the prosopon and not for the ousia and the nature. It is not indeed that one ousia without hypostasis should be conceived, as if by union into one ousia and there were no prosôpon of one ousia, but the natures subsist in their prosôpa and in their natures and in the prosôpon of the union. For in respect to the natural prosôpon of the one the other also makes use of the same on account of the union; and thus [there is] one prosôpon of the two natures. The prosôpon of the one ousia makes use of the prosôpon of the other ousia in the same [way]. For what ousia seekest thou to make without a prosôpon? That of the divinity? Or that of the humanity? Therefore thou wilt not call God the Word flesh nor the flesh Son.This statement by Nestorius is troubling and why I find a graphic shown here to be misleading. Nestorius says that the prosopon (defined by McGuckin as the “observable character, defining properties, manifestation of a reality,” pg. 138) of the divine ousia (essence) and the prosopon of the human ousia are united in one prosopon.
Two prosopa somehow unite such that one prosopon results. And yet, for Nestorius, even given the resultant prosopon, there are still two prosopa, each making “use” of each other. How is this intelligible? McGuckin goes on to argue that Nestorius grounded the union in God’s will: the prosopa of the Logos and the man Jesus are extrinsically related rather than ontologically grounded. Thus, when Nestorius rhetorically asks, “what ousia seekest thou to make without a prosôpon? That of the divinity? Or that of the humanity?” it seems that Nestorius is denying an enhypostatic-anhypostatic distinction - not that I think human nature can exist apart from a hypostasis but that Christ's human nature is enhypostatized by the divine Son, not a distinct individual/subject/person/hypostasis.
Another implication would be that for Nestorius, the prosopon who was glorified with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5) cannot be the same prosopon as the enfleshed Christ whom the Father sent (John 17:3). Along these lines, I can understand better now the Chalcedonian concern regarding “theotokos” (on which, see below).
Now, the same author who used the graphic I linked to above goes on to conclude, “It is recorded that Nestorius agreed with Leo of Rome in regards to Chalcedonian Christology.” The author then cites a statement Nestorius made in The Bazaar of Heracleides: “I was content to endure the things whereof they accused me, in order that while I was accused thereof, they might accept without hindrance the teachings of the Fathers.”
This appears a little too quick. Driver and Hodgson, who wrote an introduction to The Bazaar of Heracleides, qualify this:
The book must have been written by Nestorius in the year 451 or 452, seeing that there are references to the death of Theodosius II in 450, and to the flight of Dioscorus of Alexandria. Dioscorus was at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, but though formally deposed by the Council in October of that year was not condemned to banishment until the following July. On the other hand, Nestorius, though speaking of the triumph of the orthodox faith of Flavian and Leo, does not seem to be aware of the formal decisions of the Council of Chalcedon. It appears, therefore, that Dioscorus must have fled when the Council decided against him, and that when Nestorius wrote he must have heard of his flight, but not of the formal decision of the Council or of the imperial decree by which sentence of exile was pronounced upon him.Even if Nestorius knew of the council’s decisions and that there was a great deal of each side talking past one another, there certainly were substantial disagreements. Christology is very technical. It should not be surprising that the progressive, historical outworking of Christology was complex... let alone our second-order, contemporary reflection on this historical outworking. In any case, one should not look to Nestorius for a proper understanding of Christology.
It seems absurd that the Second Person of the Trinity would have gone to Gehenna, and certainly peculiar if he had gone to Hades, this last because the Second Person could not die. He was the eternal, immutable Son of God. Hence since “the man Christ Jesus” is the only other possibility, the one who died on the cross was a man, he had or was a soul, he was a human being, a person.
J. Oliver Buswell, Jr. defends creationism in a most unfortunate way. In his A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion (Zondervan, 1962, Vol. I, 250-252) he speaks three times of Christ having been born with a sinless body: “The body of Christ was perfectly sinless.” Nothing is said about a sinless soul. This is peculiarly strange, for, contrary to orthodox doctrine, Buswell teaches, “He, that is, his personal eternal being, his soul, became a human person, a human soul, without in any way ceasing to be a divine person, a divine Soul” (251). But this seems to be Nestorianism unless Buswell means to annihilate the divine Person, and other creationists would not be pleased with this defense of their doctrine.
This is consistent with another remark Clark makes in his in book, The Trinity (which was originally another chapter in his aforementioned systematic theology):
As a prelude to the discussion of this Athanasian Creed, and all the more of later argumentation, certain terminological difficulties require attention. Some of these terms occur in the creed; others have come into use from other sources. Over the centuries discussions on the Trinity have utilized the words nature, essence, being, substance, subsistence, and the very unfortunate Latin term person. These are hardly ever defined with precision. For example, one would ordinarily think that a person must have a will. But the orthodox doctrine allows the three persons of the Trinity to have one will only, while surprisingly the incarnate Jesus has two wills, one divine, one human; and yet even with a human will, and “reasonable soul,” he is not a human person. Nestorianism, with its assertion that Christ was two persons, though plausible on the ground of this psychology, is nonetheless, on the ground of the mediatorial atonement, a heresy. (Gordon Clark, The Trinity, chapter on The Athanasian Creed)
Thus, in 1978 - and probably in 1982 - Clark rejected Nestorianism. Even in his book on The Incarnation, he denies association with Nestorius on the basis of having provided definitions for key terms. Clark thought Nestorius did not provide any such definitions (McGuckin might disagree, although I'm unsure on this point). Nevertheless, his admission to John Robbins in a 1985 that "it is hard to avoid Nestorianism" suggests that on this matter, Clark was of two minds(!)
Now, definitions are important. But how we formulate theological definitions is even more important, for these must accord with God's own self-disclosure in His word. With that in mind, the point Clark makes in his book on The Trinity is pertinent: Nestorianism is a heresy because its two-person Christology leads to a rejection of one Mediator. It is be strange that so specific and excellent a criticism should have been left unanswered by Clark himself upon his change of mind in The Incarnation. Of course, Clark passed away before completing the book to his personal satisfaction.70 And they all said, “So You are the Son of God?” And He said to them, “You say correctly that I am.”
Instead, the point I wish to make is that despite elder Clark's protestations against comparison to Nestorius, his position begs the same questions: who sits at God's right hand? Is there one mediator between God and man, or are there two? Who intercedes for us: God, man, or the God-man? Is the Son through whom God spoke the same Son whose throne is forever and ever (Hebrews 1:3, 8)? Etc.
Or take Matthew 1:23. Mary is prophesied as the one who will give birth to Immanuel. She will give birth to "God-with-us." Should we have reservations about affirming this Scripture just to avoid a position that no important theologian in history has ever affirmed? These are fair challenges to those who refuse to accept orthodox doctrines and inferences.
Now, as with his Trinitarian model, I would like to think Clark's attitude regarding his theory of personhood was something along the following lines:
The discussion of the main problem in the doctrine of the Trinity may now be called completed, even if it is not complete. Other students and scholars may add to, subtract from, modify, contradict, or otherwise alter the foregoing. Such responses would be a great improvement over the present almost universal neglect of the doctrine. (chapter on Individuation)
Charity towards Clark would, I think, read him as primarily encouraging thoughtfulness regarding metaphysical conundrums. However, there can be little doubt that Clark's own thought has inhibited some people from accepting orthodox Christology. That's the charitable way to put the matter. One might reasonably be more blunt. Even so, it remains for us to take up Clark's challenge:
...if someone does not like these definitions, he is free to present his own for consideration. (The Trinity, Bavinck and Van Til).
I have offered a definition of the term person. Most people will find it queer. Most theologians will find it unacceptable. Well and good, let them formulate and propose a different definition. That is the honest and logical thing to do. Then there will be an intelligible subject of discussion. One can reasonably suppose that it could be a better definition than mine. (The Incarnation, Conclusion)
A Nestorian Christology of any flavor is biblically untenable. Clark's view causes worse problems than it aims to solve. But unless we are content with apophaticism, some positive theory must be given.
The problem for Clark was when he defined a person as "his mind or soul" (The Trinity, chapter on Some Conclusions). In fact, for Clark, a single person always has a single mind because a single person just is his mind... not to mention that he is also the objects "he" thinks (I go into more detail about this ontological collapse here). This too strict equation of a single person with a single mind led Clark to believe that Christ incarnate was two persons because Christ incarnate has two minds. That is the problem stated.
The divine mind of Christ incarnate thinks, "I am all-wise."
If claims about Jesus possessing two distinct ranges of consciousness, two distinct sets of experiences, beliefs, etc., are to be coherent then it must be possible to refer to those mental features without those features being necessarily owned by any particular person. Yet this is precisely what our concept of a person rules out. If experiences are necessarily individuated with respect to persons, then at the most fundamental logical level it makes no sense to speak of one person with two distinct consciousnesses (in the sense that each consciousness might in principle be ascribed to a different person that the other)...
If persons and not minds are the logically primary subjects of experiences and other mental states then it makes no more sense to say Christ believe that water is H2O with respect to his divine mind but did not believe that water is H2O with respect to His human mind than it does to say that Christ broke break with respect to his hands but did not break bread with respect to his feet. A person either breaks bread or he does not; likewise, a person either believes that water is H2O or he does not. To try to isolate two distinct minds or consciousnesses within one person, as Morris seeks to do, is to kick against the goads of the very concepts needed to formulate the christological problem in the first place. (Paradox in Christian Theology, pgs. 97-98)
Here is an analogy: "if claims about the person of the Father possessing two distinct attributes is to be coherent, then it must be possible to refer to those attributes without those attributes being necessarily owned by any particular person." Does Anderson really think that [the divine] attributes are not "necessarily owned" by the Father? Or would Anderson suggest some sort of extremely strong, Plotinic view of divine simplicity on which God has no attributes? I wouldn't think so, as I recall Anderson had some relevant criticisms of Dolezal's book on divine simplicity (link).
In fact, Anderson himself accepts theistic conceptual realism. He thinks that God's thoughts are identical with propositions. Insofar as propositions are distinct, God's thoughts must also be distinct. So here's another, even better analogy: "if claims about the Father's possessing two distinct thoughts is to be coherent, then it must be possible to refer to those thoughts without those thoughts being necessarily owned by any particular person." Would not Anderson deny that this follows? If so, that would mean his original argument doesn't follow either.
I bro! Great article. I totally agree to your definition of person, minds and its aplication. I have to questions:
ReplyDelete1.- What's definition you use of indexation? I search for it and shows me that it has to do with economics. Do you mean merely information possesed by the mind?
2.- Can we think of "person" being something more objetive than a phsycological term? In this sense I understand that a person can be distinguished from a concious or a mind. A person, then posses a concience or mind/minds, but is not merely a concience or mind/s. Am I right?
"Now, in certain cases, minds think self-referentially. Take an example: "Ryan is a male" is a true proposition. Because I am Ryan, I am also able to truthfully think, "I am a male." This thought reflexively indexes the true proposition "Ryan is a male." Other persons (like females) cannot truthfully use the reflexive indexical "I" to think the proposition that I think in the mode that I think it. Females would only be able to truthfully affirm the true proposition, "Ryan is a male," not the self-referential thought which indexes the proposition to myself."
ReplyDeleteI think this paragraph goes some way in answering your first question. But to expand, consider various indexicals: here, now, I, etc. The meaning of these words depend on one's frame of reference.
In particular, the indexical "I" is "reflexive": its appearance in an utterance or thought refers the utterance or thought back to the utterer or thinker. Additionally, I intend the word "reflexive" to connote one's capacity for reflection or awareness of this truth.
"Indexation" draws on the language of "indexicals" as well as the fact that the reflexive utterances or thoughts I have in mind (e.g. "I am a male") "index," "refer," or "organize" propositions (e.g. "Ryan is a male") in a certain way (i.e. "reflexively").
"Can we think of "person" being something more objetive than a phsycological term? In this sense I understand that a person can be distinguished from a concious or a mind. A person, then posses a concience or mind/minds, but is not merely a concience or mind/s. Am I right?"
That is possible. All I'm aiming to do is provide a connotative definition of person[hood], not a comprehensive one. That is, *only* persons will have a mind or minds. But that does not mean the concept of personhood just is coextensive with or exhausted by the concept of a mind or minds.
I remember being flummoxed when first reading Clark's ideas on person in his book on the incarnation.
ReplyDeleteI wonder whether you could apply your insights into the Creedal distinctions between "nature" and "person"? It seems like "mind" would be something indexed to nature, distinct from person. So would the self-referential "I am growing in wisdom and stature" spoken by Jesus reference the mind of his human nature?
Another way to look at it: is it the case that our human person and our human nature are coextensive, whereas the God-Man's is not, since he possesses two natures?
Yet another possible thought that could relate: when Paul says "we have the mind of Christ" does he imply that the believer possesses two minds--his own and Christ's--within his person (obviously in some sense other than the hypostatic union)? If so, is there an analogy here to the hypostatic union? Or perhaps the Romans 7 passage illuminates, since Paul says we possess two laws operating within one man (who is composed of two "things"--flesh and mind)?
These are all undeveloped, so they may not apply--but your post stimulated their conception.
My definition of "person" does not intend to suggest that the number of minds a person has suggests something about the number of persons one is (or vice versa). You are correct in your intuition (assuming I am rightly understanding your intention) to correspond the number of minds one has to the number of natures one has.
ReplyDelete"So would the self-referential "I am growing in wisdom and stature" spoken by Jesus reference the mind of his human nature?"
"I" is an indexical which refers to a singular, self-referent. The "self" to which said indexical refers will be a person. That is, the referent is NOT the mind in virtue of which one thinks; rather, the referent IS the one who has the mind or is the thinker. We should avoid any implication that the indexical "I" might have two different referents in the case of Jesus (which is what would follow if I answered your question affirmatively). Consider:
"I am the Son of Man."
"I am the Son of God."
In the case of Jesus, the referent of the "I" in both cases ought to be considered the same. In both cases, the referent is Jesus Himself, the singular person/hypostases/subject/individual. The mind is not coextensive with the self (which I think Claudio was getting at in his first comment).
Now, strictly speaking, that it is true that Jesus can think "I am growing in wisdom and stature" does entail that Jesus has a certain mind or nature (human). If you are just asking if the thought in question obliquely touches upon this fact, then sure.
"...is it the case that our human person and our human nature are coextensive, whereas the God-Man's is not, since he possesses two natures?"
Our natures are not coextensive with our [individual] persons. For example, as a fellow traducian and friend of mind has put it, "it is not the person of my father that I inherited, but his spirit." (https://theforgottenrealist.blog/2014/10/11/origin-of-the-soul-a-defense-of-paternal-traducianism/)
That same friend and I have discussed in many emails over the years questions along the lines you ask in your last, large paragraph. It's funny that you mention Romans 7 in particular. In a 2021 email, my friend wrote:
“Yes, there's two spirits within the believer--and most importantly, two human lives joined by the immaterial natures of both into one human life…”
I responded:
//Do you think the two spirits concept explains the war within us (Romans 7)? It also sounds like you almost might analogize Christ’s hypostatic union of divine and human nature with a believer’s hypostatic union of two human natures – is this correct?//
His reply:
"There's nothing new here regarding the believer's struggles with the flesh. The flesh refers to the flesh-focused nature of the old man struggling with the God-focused nature of the new man. But the old man and the new man are not the spirit of the believer and the Spirit of Christ. Both spirits in union are the new man in Christ, while the struggle is between the old nature and the new. So it is not that my spirit struggles against the Spirit of Christ (or the Holy Spirit), but that the new struggles to act in ways that are embracing of the new nature--to act in union with Christ--while the old nature struggles to cause the believer to act in ways that disregard the union--to act independently of the new nature by falling back into the thought-patterns and actions that one practiced prior to union with Christ. As for the analogy to the hypostatic union, I haven't delved into that very far."
//You are correct in your intuition (assuming I am rightly understanding your intention) to correspond the number of minds one has to the number of natures one has.//
ReplyDeleteYes, that was my intent.
//The mind is not coextensive with the self.//
This is difficult. I'm trying to also keep in my the Trinity, with the three persons united in one being. Being would be identical to nature (divine nature), would it not? So the mind of the Son would have self-referential propositions that the Father would not (e.g. "I am the eternally begotten one"), but that mind would not be coextensive with the person of the Son? What would be the remainder? Would it be something like the shared divine nature that extends beyond the self-referential thoughts of the mind?
Introducing Traducianism is more confusing to me, but let me try (I do hold to Traducianism, but haven't tried to work out the metaphysics of it). If by inheriting one's father's "spirit" means those immaterial attributes that he possesses (analogous to the material attributes one possesses), then I think I can get my mind around what "spirit" means. Just as our bodies are made from our parents's bodies without being identical to them, so our spirits are made from our parents's spirits without being identical to them.
But then what distinguishes mind and spirit, or are they the same?
As for the subsequent post wherein you discuss the intermediate state, have you considered also that our spiritual bodies may be of a different order than our physical bodies? Paul's statements about the natural body and spiritual body are puzzling. "Adam became a living being. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." The first man was made of the earth from dust, the last man is from heaven. Is it not safe to say that even in our present state we not "fully human" but are "incomplete" because the body we were given (even Adam's sinless body) was only the seed of what will only be completed in the resurrection? So, it may be the case that there is no ontological change since the separation of the spirit from the body in death is part of the planned transformation from natural body to spiritual body (like the seed germinating).
Thoughts?
"So the mind of the Son would have self-referential propositions that the Father would not (e.g. "I am the eternally begotten one"), but that mind would not be coextensive with the person of the Son? What would be the remainder?"
DeleteHi Joshua, Why is it necessary to have a "remainder" outside of His mind? I'm trying to understand what that might mean. Can a spirit be anything but their mind, or the sum of their thoughts? Thx
You're asking difficult questions, but I am grateful for the push. Since they warrant a thorough answer, I'll answer your questions in a new post.
ReplyDeleteHello,
ReplyDeleteSome help needed regarding Traducianism.
Has anyone written about how the spirit/mind is passed on to the offspring from the Dad? Is the life (?spirit/mind) passed on via sperm/chromosomes?
Sometimes we see siblings who are quite similar (twins) in their thinking, but other times siblings seem to be worlds apart. How can this be explained from the same Dad/Mum?
Is the sinful nature passed on to the children via some actual sinful thoughts contained in the sperm, or some airy-fairy, undefined "disposition"? How can thoughts, or dispositions, or nature, be passed down in a sperm? Do sperm have thoughts?
Or, could God create a new soul at conception? He surely would not create a sinful soul, would He? Some say He does not create because He finished His work of creation at day 7, but what then is regeneration where He puts a new spirit within us? We are even called a new creation in Christ, is this different from when God created at the beginning? How is it that we can have a new mind, yet have a memory that seems to have no break in the record where we have a new mind? It still seems to be the old mind which has changed somehow - we are given the gift of faith from the Holy Spirit. This gift is something outside of us that becomes ours (us?) but is this creation of something new? It sure seems to be.
Dr Clark mentions that there is a very poor understanding for most people of what an individual is and that we should study theories of Individuation. Can you please recommend trusted authors on this subject? Google just confuses me on this topic.
The previous comment is mine, I forgot to change the Anonymous. Sorry.
Delete"Or, could God create a new soul at conception? He surely would not create a sinful soul, would He?"
ReplyDeleteNo, and this is a point in favor of traducianism. God does not create souls that are rebellious towards him - these rebellious souls are traduced from their Adamic father who rebelled.
"This gift is something outside of us that becomes ours (us?) but is this creation of something new? It sure seems to be."
Gordon Clark writes (https://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/The%20Trinity%20Review%200026a%20Traducianism.pdf):
"One must remember that regeneration, in the epistles, is usually called a resurrection. Resurrection allows the individual sinner to remain himself. Well, regeneration does so too. Creation ex nihilo produces someone else."
What is new is our connection to Christ through the work of the Spirit. This is something that did not exist before (while we were yet sinners), so in that sense the regenerated person is a new creation. There must be *some* continuity between the unregenerate *person* in whom the Spirit works regeneration and the finished product, the regenerate *person*. The persons and their natures pre-existed the Spirit's work, for we were still humans while we were yet sinners.
Just as Christ's dead body was re-animated with life in the resurrection-union of His body to His soul, so too our dead souls are re-animated with life in the resurrection-union of our souls to Christ through the Spirit.
Now, the mechanics of this is a different question. How did God resurrect-unite Christ's dead body to His soul? How did the Spirit work to resurrect-unite our souls to Christ? How does the fertilization relate to ensoulment? How is in the soul of Adam traduced to his offspring through the male line?
The answers to these questions could be as simple as divine fiat - these could take place (when they do) by divine ordination. This would be analogous to creation in one way. Yet the processes would be disanalogous to the Genesis creation in that that which has already been created is used to effect the divinely ordained result.
In any case, it's like a light switch that turns on a light or a key that turns on a car. I don't have to know how something works to understand that it does.
But I doubt that sperm/chromosomes cause ensoulment. In particular, we must be careful to avoid the suggestion that genetics or matter could be immoral or sinful. Sin is not "contained" in physical sperm - this is gnosticism.
Now, there does indeed appear to be a correspondence between the material and immaterial parts of the progeny in relation to the progenitor(s), but I think this just illustrates that like begets like: physically, we often look like our mothers and/or fathers. Behaviorally (which is *not* reducible to physical material), we often act like our fathers (indirectly, this could be true of our mothers too - "nurture" plays a role in our behavior just as "nature" does, not to mention the connection between mothers and fathers).
"Dr Clark mentions that there is a very poor understanding for most people of what an individual is and that we should study theories of Individuation. Can you please recommend trusted authors on this subject? Google just confuses me on this topic."
I've largely done my own thinking on these subjects. This post might help: https://theforgottenrealist.blog/2023/05/31/the-importance-of-biblical-realism/. Check out more recent posts on this blog. John of Damascus has some stimulating thoughts in "The Fount of Knowledge" (https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur009511mbp/page/n41/mode/2up).
I also have a draft of a post that has notes on this question, but I'm working on other things right now. If you email me at rhedrich3@gmail.com, I'll send you the notes I have.
Thankyou Ryan for your reply, and for the link regarding Nominalism vs Realism. I never even knew this was a thing!
ReplyDeleteI think Dr G. H. Clark was a realist. Am I correct in that understanding of him? Thx.
https://theforgottenrealist.blog/2023/05/31/the-importance-of-biblical-realism/
Clark's position is a bit odd. He does accept traducianism and claims he is an epistemological realist (what we know really is true), but he denies the realist view of original sin I outline in that link. See here, pgs. 67-72:
Deletehttps://www.douglasdouma.com/2016/06/02/introduction-to-theology-by-gordon-h-clark-chapter-7-salvation/
I think Clark's ethical voluntarism (that all divine commands are the result of will rather than at least some - e.g. the blameworthiness of lying - rooted in God's nature) impacted his thought on this question - in a negative way.
Thx for that.
Delete